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lemphek
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 可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱? (受条件)

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A while ago I told Metalabyss I would research the plausibility of accepting EAC's Burst Mode as an acceptable method of accurately ripping CDs. I understand that this has been discussed and directed before, and so I hope that the information I am presenting is supplementary to that provided before and thus more convincing.

The results of my findings is that Burst Mode is a plausible acceptable alternative to Secure Mode, but only on the conditions;

1) The rip is done using EAC 1.0 or later, and all settings are correct per this guide (noting the burst mode-specific instructions here)

2) The rip is done using Test & Copy, and
a) the CRCs of the test and copy runs match OR
b) The rip contains mismatched CRCs or "unverified sectors" but is verified by the AccurateRip database (the existence of "unverified sectors" does not mean the rip is inaccurate, only that the
3) The log contains a checksum and has not been edited

4) If the rip is not "100% accurate" (i.e. CRCs do not match and rip has not been verified by AccurateRip database), user should rip again using Secure Mode


This recommendation is based on the fact that the purpose of Secure Mode is to rip CDs which are old, dirty, or cannot be successfully ripped using Burst Mode, as suggested by EAC's creator Andre Wiethoff. For some CDs, in my only personal experience, secure mode takes average of 1 hour per CD (sometimes in excess of 2 or even 3 hours), whereas the average time for burst mode rips is 20 minutes or less. For users who are ripping large libraries of CDs (others amongst asch, hjknight and myself whom have over 300个碟子), this time difference is very significant

However, I do not mean to propose that all burst mode rips should be accepted, only that Burst Mode rips can provide the same degree of accuracy as rips done in Secure Mode if using correct settings whilst taking a lot less time.

Additionally, I note that a change in rules puts additional pressure on moderators, hence I suggest that this tool would be an effective way for moderators to quickly check the validity of burst mode rips, and that in then event of any inconsistencies the burden of proof should lie on the uploader.

Whilst Burst Mode cannot provide the same consistency in accuracy as Secure Mode (occasionally even CDs do not rip properly), this can be easily verified by checking the log. I would suggest that if ASTOST staff were to allow those who are willing to configure their settings correctly and check their own logs to use Burst Mode, a lot of time can be saved when uploading large quantities of CDs

I understand that the views of ASTOST staff may well be different to my own, and so hope this information is at least educational if not compelling

thanks ~
小彭

edit - For reference,I have ripped the same CD in both Secure Mode and Burst Mode and provided the resulting logs

Secure Mode~
Burst Mode ~

For this CD, Burst Mode took about half the amount of time with the same resulting level of accuracy
[ 此帖被lemphek在2013-10-18 01:33 AM重新编辑 ]
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喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-17 23:06 | [楼 主]
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 Re:可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱?

I am sorry but Burst mode can't obtain love point even if
burst mode rips can provide the same degree of accuracy

we force people to use right setup of EAC,especially in EX咖哩區
It’s the principle of the thing

Rip it again is the only way to obtain love point
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喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-17 23:32 | 1 楼
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 Re:Re:可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱?

Quote:
引用第1楼carlorff于2013-10-17 11:32 PM发表的 Re:可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱? :
I am sorry but Burst mode can't obtain love point even if
burst mode rips can provide the same degree of accuracy

we force people to use right setup of EAC,especially in EX咖哩區
It’s the principle of the thing
.......

Excuse me if this has already been explained, but what was the reasoning behind this decision?
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喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-17 23:40 | 2 楼
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 Re:Re:Re:可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱?

Quote:
引用第2楼lemphek于2013-10-17 23:40发表的 Re:Re:可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱? :

Excuse me if this has already been explained, but what was the reasoning behind this decision?


Like I said,It’s the principle of the thing ,the rule of obtain love point can't have any gray zone
this is not a decision, this is an essential setup and no exception

I hope you can relize our forum rules dont accept any burst rip to obtain love point
some well known PT ,ex:WHATCD or Waffle refuse burst mode rip neither
[ 此帖被carlorff在2013-10-18 00:13重新编辑 ]
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喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-17 23:54 | 3 楼
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 Re:Re:Re:Re:可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱?

Quote:
引用第3楼carlorff于2013-10-17 11:54 PM发表的 Re:Re:Re:可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱? :


Like I said,It’s the principle of the thing ,the rule of obtain love point can't have any gray zone
this is not a decision, this is an essential setup and no exception

.......

I'm not completely understanding, sorry. I was not asking for my personal rip to be 'exempt' from the rules, but - rather - suggesting that the rules should be changed to include burst mode. If ASTOST staff disagree, then of course I will respect their judgement

To clarify, what.cd do accept burst mode rips; i.e. a burst mode rip with no errors can only be superseded by a secure mode rip with correct settings no errors
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喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-18 00:35 | 4 楼
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 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱?

Quote:
引用第4楼lemphek于2013-10-18 00:35发表的 Re:可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱? :

I'm not completely understanding, sorry. I was not asking for my personal rip to be 'exempt' from the rules, but - rather - suggesting that the rules should be changed to include burst mode. If ASTOST staff disagree, then of course I will respect their judgement

To clarify, what.cd do accept burst mode rips; i.e. a burst mode rip with no errors can only be superseded by a secure mode rip with correct settings no errors

As we all know, the %'s What.CD decides for their logs are not a quality standard, but rather an arbitrary unit of measurement.
For example, all Linux rips have to be manually rescored, and any range rip automatically fails the logchecker.
The second is the most surprising, given that a perfect range rip is sonically equivalent to a perfect track rip.
Sure, if What started accepting range rips users which have ranges would have to split them, but even if you have a track rip you're essentially trusting the user that the files you get are legitimate files. Furthermore, the %'s they knock off are entirely arbitrary as well. Only 1% for not including a checksum? That should fail the check automatically, as anyone can edit it convincingly if it has no checksum.

tl;dr The 100% rip is a manufactured "standard" created by What that has been indoctrinated in the Western audiophile scene.
You can find Eastern private trackers (especially Russian from what I've heard) that take quality very seriously, but rip ranges.
According to What, those rips are "fails" if they don't have 2 or more AR results (and if you're ripping a rare CD, it won't even have 1).
[ 此帖被ethoraji在2013-10-18 00:50重新编辑 ]
喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-18 00:43 | 5 楼
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 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱?

Quote:
引用第5楼ethoraji于2013-10-18 12:43 AM发表的 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱? :

As we all know, the %'s What.CD decides for their logs are not a quality standard, but rather an arbitrary unit of measurement.
For example, all Linux rips have to be manually rescored, and any range rip automatically fails the logchecker.
The second is the most surprising, given that a perfect range rip is sonically equivalent to a perfect track rip.
Sure, if What started accepting range rips users which have ranges would have to split them, but even if you have a track rip you're essentially trusting the user that the files you get are legitimate files. Furthermore, the %'s they knock off are entirely arbitrary as well. Only 1% for not including a checksum? That should fail the check automatically, as anyone can edit it convincingly if it has no checksum.
.......

Yes, I was aware I was using #what-specific terminology, and I don't disagree with what you said you at all

edit: as far as I understand, the primary reason #what rejects range rips is because the can not be verified by a logchecker the same way split rips can...and manually checking every torrent en masse is too much for the moderators (hence the log "scoring" system)....anyway, let's keep this on topic

and ww "indoctrination"
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喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-18 00:53 | 6 楼
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 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱?

Quote:
引用第6楼lemphek于2013-10-18 00:53发表的 Re:可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱? :

Yes, I was aware I was using #what-specific terminology, and I don't disagree with what you said you at all

and ww "indoctrination"

So then the argument is, if even What can have arbitrary rules for rips, why can't Astost?
Essentially you want to make it so users can rip "perfect" rips without spending too much time per CD, correct?
But, forcing people to use Test and Copy is not even required in the current rules.
So, what is wrong with the current rules? I can't say Secure + Copy takes too long...and it is generally very very accurate.
喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-18 00:58 | 7 楼
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 re: 可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱?

Quote:
引用第7楼ethoraji于2013-10-18 12:58 AM发表的 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱? :

So then the argument is, if even What can have arbitrary rules for rips, why can't Astost?
Essentially you want to make it so users can rip "perfect" rips without spending too much time per CD, correct?
But, forcing people to use Test and Copy is not even required in the current rules.
So, what is wrong with the current rules? I can't say Secure + Copy takes too long...and it is generally very very accurate.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at in terms of referencing to what.cd's rules. I only brought up the issue of Burst Mode because I had been told that it had been rejected by ASTOST staff a few years back but couldn't find any information about why, and because I feel it would save rippers a lot of time (a Burst Mode rip on my system takes about 1/3 - 1/2 the time of a Secure Mode rip) with the same level of accuracy if set up properly
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喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-18 01:28 | 8 楼
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 Re:re: 可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱?

Quote:
引用第8楼lemphek于2013-10-18 01:28发表的 re: 可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱? :

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at in terms of referencing to what.cd's rules. I only brought up the issue of Burst Mode because I had been told that it had been rejected by ASTOST staff a few years back but couldn't find any information about why, and because I feel it would save rippers a lot of time (a Burst Mode rip on my system takes about 1/3 - 1/2 the time of a Secure Mode rip) with the same level of accuracy if set up properly

Really? A Secure Test and Copy rip on my drive is equivalent to 1X read speed, maybe 2X if I'm extremely lucky. I wouldn't think 15-30 minutes for a 1 hr disc is that bad (if I was to just use Secure+Copy).
I only referenced What because you used it as an example of a place that does accept Burst (I suppose to counter carloff's argument).
I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying - if you can get the mods onboard it should be faster.
I just think there's very little extra benefit, and more work on both the users' part and the mods' part.
喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-18 01:39 | 9 楼
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 Re:Re:re: 可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱?

Quote:
引用第9楼ethoraji于2013-10-18 01:39 AM发表的 Re:re: 可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱? :

Really? A Secure Test and Copy rip on my drive is equivalent to 1X read speed, maybe 2X if I'm extremely lucky. I wouldn't think 15-30 minutes for a 1 hr disc is that bad (if I was to just use Secure+Copy).
I only referenced What because you used it as an example of a place that does accept Burst (I suppose to counter carloff's argument).
I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying - if you can get the mods onboard it should be faster.
I just think there's very little extra benefit, and more work on both the users' part and the mods' part.

The difference is that Carloff has asked me to disable my drive's cache ("Defeat Audio Cache" in EAC settings) which nearly doubles the time again in Secure Mode. These two things combined do make a significant difference

I think I may speak to Carloff also, this setting is not necessary for my drive
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喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-18 01:49 | 10 楼
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 Re:Re:Re:re: 可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱?

Quote:
引用第10楼lemphek于2013-10-18 01:49发表的 Re:Re:re: 可以不可以允许用EAC的burst办法奖励爱? :

The difference is that Carloff has asked me to disable my drive's cache ("Defeat Audio Cache" in EAC settings) which nearly doubles the time again in Secure Mode. These two things combined do make a significant difference

I think I may speak to Carloff also, this setting is not necessary for my drive

So maybe instead of a global rule this should be dealt with on a user-by-user basis?
喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-18 01:53 | 11 楼
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We just want safety rips, as stable as possible, that's all.
喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-18 01:55 | 12 楼
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Quote:
引用第12楼metalabyss于2013-10-18 01:55 AM发表的  :
We just want safety rips, as stable as possible, that's all.

This was the source of my confusion, you said this to me before also. I'm not sure if this was clear, but Burst Mode can also provide consistently stable rips, and settings like "defeat audio cache" are not necessary for all drives
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喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-18 01:58 | 13 楼
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Quote:
引用第13楼lemphek于2013-10-18 01:58发表的  :

This was the source of my confusion, you said this to me before also. I'm not sure if this was clear, but Burst Mode can also provide consistently stable rips, and settings like "defeat audio cache" are not necessary for all drives

People belive in secure mode much more than burst mode, although both could provide same results, this is the phenomenon.

In one word, using secure mode for self-rips is the standard of ASTOST, this cannot be changed.
喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-18 02:49 | 14 楼
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MA, Carloff

if I were to submit the following log, would it be accepted?



Additionally, if this log were without the Accurate Rip confirmation, would it also be accepted? Thanks
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喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-18 13:00 | 15 楼
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 回 楼主(lemphek) 的帖子

Hey lemphek, do you checked this rip in a spectrogram?
喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-19 23:47 | 16 楼
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 Re:回 楼主(lemphek) 的帖子

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引用第16楼bawler于2013-10-19 11:47 PM发表的 回 楼主(lemphek) 的帖子 :
Hey lemphek, do you checked this rip in a spectrogram?

Which rip are you referring to? And why would I check it using a spectrogram?
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喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-19 23:57 | 17 楼
bawler
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 回 17楼(lemphek) 的帖子

The first, which you ripped using burst and secure mode. Spectrogram is used to verify the frequencies of the tracks to see if it is a lossless audio. Try to see the frequencies in Spek and compare them, and show me the pics if you do it. p:
喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-20 00:38 | 18 楼
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 Re:回 17楼(lemphek) 的帖子

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引用第18楼bawler于2013-10-20 00:38发表的 回 17楼(lemphek) 的帖子 :
The first, which you ripped using burst and secure mode. Spectrogram is used to verify the frequencies of the tracks to see if it is a lossless audio. Try to see the frequencies in Spek and compare them, and show me the pics if you do it. p:

Why would he need to confirm if he has AR verifications?
喜欢(0) 顶端 Posted: 2013-10-20 00:41 | 19 楼
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